When it became clear that Corey Patterson was no longer welcome with the Cubs, they were in need of a superstar center fielder. When they couldn’t find one, they settled on Juan Pierre. Pierre brought his undeserved reputation for being a good base stealer, his complete lack of power, his rag arm, and his idiotic McDonald’s commercial with him. You know who clearly doesn’t know a damn thing about baseball? Jay-Z. Juan Pierre is without a doubt the worst player to ever obtain “superstar” status.
On December 7, 2005, the Cubs traded Sergio Mitre, Ricky Nolasco, and Renyel Pinto to the Florida Marlins for Pierre in a move which was long rumored to be in the works. The rumors gave Cubs fans plenty of time to get angry about the trade.
Pierre was excited to patrol in front of the ivory at Wrigley Field. Yes, ivory. Prior to the 2003 NLCS, Pierre said that the only thing he was nervous about was crashing into the “ivory” on the walls of Wrigley Field. If by “ivory” Pierre meant “my fist,” and by “crashing” he meant “getting punched repeatedly by,” then his worries were justifiable. If you recall, that 2003 NLCS was the same NLCS during which Pierre was a complete nightmare for Cubs pitching. Imagine my surprise that it didn’t translate once he put on the blue pinstripes.
Let me run you through about 90% of Pierre’s Cub at-bats. On the first pitch, Pierre fakes like he’s going to bunt. Called strike one. Here’s a question. Why? Why in the hell is Pierre faking a bunt on the first pitch of every at-bat? I’m pretty sure that opposing teams already have the scouting report on Pierre. It reads:
Good speed. Absolutely no chance of hitting the ball out of the
ballparkinfield. Sprays balls to all infielders. Defensively, should consider using short-centerfielder with two outfielders. Likes to bunt for 200 meaningless singles each year. Used to have a ridiculous mustache. Wears baseball cap under batting helmet like he’s still in f@#$ing tee ball. Looks like he’s in f@#$ing tee ball. Hits like he’s in f@#$ing tee ball. Pitch him like he’s in f@#$ing tee ball. Seriously. Go ahead. Walk the ball up to him, set it on a tee, and watch him “square up” a three-hopper to the first baseman.
Seriously, what was the point of Pierre faking a bunt on the first pitch? Everyone knew the only chance he had of reaching first base safely was to bunt. Pierre showing bunt was about as surprising as Lindsay Lohan admitting that she has an eating disorder and boob job. No. F@#$ing. Shit.
The second pitch of a typical Pierre at bat is usually fouled straight back to the screen. Generally, that was the best contact you were going to see during the at-bat. With Pierre, you took what you could get. “Holy shit! Pierre hit a line drive!” you might say. “So what if it was going in the exact opposite direction that we need it to go? It was a screamer!”
On the third pitch, Pierre swings with all his might and hits a seven-hopper to the second baseman. Most of the excitement of watching Pierre play comes in the moment between the time he makes contact, and the time he is thrown out at first base by half a step. Pierre is so astonishingly weak, that opposing second basemen have to charge his grounders at full speed. So every routine 4-3 putout makes idiot fans like me rise to our feet in the hopes that Pierre will beat out the throw to first. Pierre is that perfect combination of speed and limp-dick hitting which makes him all but guaranteed to be thrown out by just a split second on every single groundout. Exciting, I guess, but also a complete waste of 1/3 of an inning each time Pierre steps to the plate.
Pierre has a reputation for not striking out often. What’s his secret? He swings early, and he swings often. Pierre has no idea how to wait for a hitter’s pitch, which is fine since he wouldn’t know what to do with it, anyhow, what with him not being an actual hitter.
Since Pierre refuses to take pitches, he also rarely walks, and he doesn’t see many pitches per at-bat. Basically, he pretty much blows as a leadoff hitter. Yet somehow he was Jim Hendry’s 2006 answer to the leadoff question. Good God. Perhaps if Pierre had spent his pregame routine standing in the batter’s box watching pitches and identifying balls and strikes instead of rolling his balls down the foul lines, he might have been a more useful player.
I’d like to take this opportunity to set the record straight about Pierre’s abilities as a base stealer. Pierre sucks at stealing bases. He’s terrible at it. The guy is fast, no doubt. But he doesn’t get good jumps, he doesn’t read pitchers well, and he never surprises anyone when he chooses to run. That’s why in his career Pierre has only been successful in 73% of his steal attempts. In comparison, legitimate base stealer Rickey Henderson stole successfully 81% of the time. What? It’s not fair to compare the eventual Hall of Famer to Pierre? Okay. Then former center fielder Corey Patterson also stole bases at an 81% rate. Sure, he didn’t steal as many bases as Pierre, but he gave away an out less than one out of every five times he was on base. Pierre gave one away greater than one out of every four times.
Screw you, Pierre, for making me defend Corey Patterson.
Pierre was equally impotent in the field. Sorry, Juan. Every time he threw home, I expected Michael Barrett to start doing a jig next to an enormous pot of gold. Pierre’s arm is so outstandingly bad, even the completely disinterested Los Angeles sports media realizes. You have to be all kinds of awful for a sportswriter in California to acknowledge it. Christ, Dusty Baker didn’t even draw that much ire in his time in San Francisco.
Pierre was let go after the 2006 season to make room for new center fielder Alfonso Soriano/Felix Pie/Matt Murton/Jacque Jones/Angel Pagan. One of the guys the Cubs gave up for one worthless year of Pierre, meanwhile, has gone 2-2 with a 1.89 ERA and a 1.112 WHIP. That’s right. Sergio Mitre is pitching great this year.
Screw you, Larry Rothschild.
Low Point: Everyone’s favorite leadoff hitter only drew two walks in the entire month of September, 2006, and both of those came in the same game. Pierre went twenty-five games at the end of the season (nearly all of September into October) without drawing a single walk. To illustrate how bad that is, Pierre actually had one more home run during that time than he did walks.
Did You Know? In case you’ve been waiting this whole time to come with a “but he had 200 hits” argument, think again. Pierre’s 204 hits in 2006 were the most hollow 204 hits in Major League history. Pierre is only the second player ever to record more than 200 hits in a season without batting .300 (Pierre hit .292). Buddy Bell did it in 1979. The only difference is that Bell just barely got the hits (exactly 200) and just barely missed the average (he hit .299). Oh, and Bell hit 18 homers, drove in 101 RBIs, and slugged .451, as opposed to Pierre’s 3 homers, 40 RBIs, and .388 SLG.
wrong
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I KNEW you were serious about your “but he had 200 hits” comment.
Please tell me you’re not going to legitimately try to defend Juan Pierre. Come on, TDubbs. He f@#$ing sucked, he cost us warm bodies, and he did absolutely nothing to help the team.
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Kermit,
For your next continuing series, I recommend writing “scouting reports” for each member of the current Cubs roster. I think we readers would enjoy that.
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Hey, that’s a hell of an idea, Clark. I have another list in mind, but maybe I can also pick a player each week on whom I can do a scouting report. Thanks for the idea!
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Oh so very right.
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Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you Thank you
God DAYUM did I hate me some Pierre. What I hated most about his hollow 200 hits is that it allowed him to be the first Cub since Sandberg in ‘84 to accomplish the feat. snap the streak. Totally undeserved. I hated watching thsi jerkoff play so much, I’d rather watch a 4-hour “comedy” starring Adam Sanndler and Rob Schneider.
Thank you, Kerm.
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Sorry for the typos. Obviously, it’s hard to type when one is foaming at the mouth with anger.
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Don’t thank me. Thank Jim Hendry’s dumb ass for making us watch this clown for 162 games and ALMOST SEVEN HUNDRED (699) at-bats. Jesus Christ. By comparison, Sandberg got his 200 hits in only 636 at-bats.
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If I counted correctly, Pierre makes the 18th Cub from the 2006 team to make the bottom 126. Assuming that Neifi will be in the top 9, that will make 19/25 roster players who are in the B126. I would like to commend Dusty for the managing job he did last year with these steaming turds. It is absolutely Amazing that we did not lose 140 games. I wish I could have back the time and money I spent watching that team.
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Either that or I have a terrible, terrible memory, Jay.
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Bad as Pierre was, there are obviously enough GM’s in the league who buy into his “rolling balls down the foul line” act that he commanded a large contract in the offseason. My question is, how the hell could Hendry not unload this piece of shit for something at the deadline last year? Somebody would have bitten. Then Pie would have gotten some time in the majors. I hate Jim Hendry.
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you will hate the donut man more in July, CT, when he decides that being “only” 3 games under .500 for the previous month or “only” 6 games out of first in the central but 10 back in the wild-card race suggests that we “go for it” which means losing more young talent to lock up someone who looks and plays like Jeremy Burnitz or David Weathers
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CT, that would have also prevented Pierre from collecting his 204 hits. Unfortunately, players are only allowed to trade THEMSELVES under Hendry’s watch.
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I died laughing when matt vasgersian said he was good last year!
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Ha ha, this is very good. And i, also, love Clark’s idea…
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Remember last May when Nolasco hit a solo home run and and then drove in another run against the Cubs? He had more RBIs in that one game than Pierre had in the entire season up to that point.
Good times.
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Was it Vasgersian who was the play-by-play announcer for last Saturday’s game on Fox? I watched that game on and off, so I wasn’t sure who it was, but I did actually catch him saying “[Pierre] is a great leadoff hitter, gets on base a lot.” GETS ON BASE A LOT. Whoever said it should no longer have a job involving observing matters, having thoughts, or saying things. BTW, longtime reader, first time poster, great site.
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What about his camoflauge shirt?
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Oooooo, good one, MC. Uhh…
“And he wore that stupid camouflage shirt. Too bad the damn thing didn’t work. I would have loved to have looked out into center field and NOT seen Juan Pierre.”
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How is it Pierre’s fault that Hendry traded too much for him? 200 meaningless hits?? His OBP is better than Soriano’s. Just because a guy has a weak arm and no power doesn’t make him worthless. The Dodgers ane going to the playoffs this year and the Cubs are not because they have table setters. I would have loved to see D. Lee play a full season with Pierre batting in front of him. He may not be a leadoff hitter, I would have batted him 2nd or maybe 8th, but the guy is better then half the center fielders playing right now. Name 15 better starting center fielders…I know you are not going to say Jacque Jones is better. Lets go dwon the list. He is better than Corey Patterson, Elijah Dukes, David DeJesus, Curtis Granderson, Darin Erstad, Kenny Lofton, Alfredo Amezaga, Ryan Langerhans, Chris Burke, Jim Edmonds, Chris Duffy, Chris Young, Mike Cameron, Willt Tavarez, and of course Jones. So if you want to complain about Pierre being so bad, look at this list. It could be worse, oh wait…We have Jacque Jones in center, it is worse! 200 meaningless hits? That is just funny, why don’t you go all the way and say Hank Aaron at the end of his carrer had 100 meaningless homeruns. Douchebags.
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Keep reading. You can do it…
“Pierre is only the second player ever to record more than 200 hits in a season without batting .300 (Pierre hit .292). Buddy Bell did it in 1979. The only difference is that Bell just barely got the hits (exactly 200) and just barely missed the average (he hit .299). Oh, and Bell hit 18 homers, drove in 101 RBIs, and slugged .451, as opposed to Pierre’s 3 homers, 40 RBIs, and .388 SLG.”
If you gave ME enough at-bats, I could eventually collect 200 Major League hits, and it wouldn’t mean I was any good. Douchebag.
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Maybe after 1,000,000 at-bats you would get 200 hits. That may have been the most ignorant comment ever stated. Wow.
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That’s the whole point, guy. 200 hits in 699 at-bats isn’t all that impressive. Compare it to Ichiro’s 262 hits in 2004 in only FIVE more at-bats than Pierre had. Or if it hurts your brain to think beyond the Cubs, Derrek Lee had 199 hits (only five less than Pierre) in 2005 in 105 FEWER at-bats than Pierre had.
Face it, man, Pierre blows. Are you honestly arguing that the Dodgers are benefiting from Pierre’s current .274/.303/.324 line? If the Dodgers make the playoffs, it’s going to be despite Juan Pierre, not because of him.
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Actually dude, it is impressive. Pierre led the NL in hits AND at- bats last year. He played all 162 games and stole 58 bases. That is valuable. If you seriously think that the Cubs would not be better this year with him in center then you have too much hate on your brain. In no way did I ever say he was better than Ichiro or D. Lee but he is better than Jacque Jones and about 15 other starting center fielders in the Majors. Corey Patterson Jr. (Felix Pie) will not come close to any numbers Pierre has put up over his career. I know it is hard to believe but there was a time in baseball when a player who never struck out, put the ball in play, got on base 200 plus times in a season, stole 50 plus bases a year, and covered almost the entire outfield was considered a good baseball player. No one is putting him in the Hall of Fame but he played one year for the Cubs and for some reason this new breed of self loathing Cubs fans blame him for the Cubs woes. Face it man, other than Aramis, Pierre was the only player to show up all of last season. So put him above the Luis Salazar’s and Ronny Cedeno’s because you are right, batting .291 with 204 hits and 58 stolen bases is the definition of someone that “blows.” Wake-up. Hey in your backwards world would Michael Barrett win a Gold Glove?
P.S. Numbers don’t go out and play every day, players do. Ryne Sandberg never got over 200 hits batting in the second spot and he only hit .300 or higher 5 times in a 16 year career. Did he blow as well?
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Wow. If you would rather have Juan Pierre in center field over Felix Pie, I feel sorry for you. Are YOU Juan Pierre? Shouldn’t you be lifting weights, or something? Pierre was NOT better than Jones last year. Jones put up a respectable .285/.334/.499 line. This year, Jones is having a terrible year with his .243/.303/.343 line. And you know what? I would still MUCH rather have Jones out there than Pierre’s .274/.303/.324. Jones actually played a halfway decent center field this season. Far better than Pierre did last year. And Pierre’s arm makes Jacque’s look like Ichiro’s. Add in the fact that we’d still have Mitre, Nolasco, and Pinto, and you bet your ass I would have rather trotted Jacque out there last year and this year. Hell, in hindsight, Patterson’s .276/.314/.443 with 45 stolen bases would have been an improvement last year.
Jesus Christ, you just made me do the unthinkable and defend Jacque f@#$ing Jones and Corey f@#$ing Patterson. I need a shower.
Sandberg got 200 hits in 1984. He did it in SIXTY-THREE fewer at-bats than Pierre did, and he hit .314/.367/.520. Pierre’s line last year was .292/.330/.388. See the difference? One line is good, and one sucks. As Mike mentioned, it’s a goddamn travesty that Pierre is the only Cub to get 200 hits in a season since Sandberg. A guy who can get 204 hits and still only get on base 33% of the time sucks, no matter how you try to spin it.
Counting stats lie, pal. If you stick around in the game long enough, you can break the record of any counting statistic (hits, homers, wins, stolen bases, etc.). That’s the whole reason they invented things like BA, OBP, SLG, etc. I don’t understand how you can’t see that.
Take note that you’re the only one arguing with me on this. Also take note that I have nothing against you personally, Juan. From all accounts, you seem to be a nice guy and a good teammate. You just suck at baseball.
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Do you just have these responses cued up or something? Again you are blaming Pierre for Jim Hendry trading away three pitchers. Then your argument against numbers not telling the story is more numbers. I just don’t get it how someone could say that Juan Pierre “Sucks” or “Blows”. Are you playing major league baseball? Or even minor league baseball? How about a Sunday League with a bunch of Mexicans that work in your building? So…Kermit, you suck at baseball. And Juan Pierre and every other major and minor leaguer don’t. They may not all be Hall of Famers or All Stars but they are getting paid to play. And if you were getting paid to play and you hit .291, had 204 hits, and stole 58 bases in your only year on a team and then the fans of that team said that you sucked or blew I think you would see it different. But I am sure that you were cut from your Junior High team and now you think that leading the league in hits is “meaningless”. Did you expect Pierre to hit .390 hit 75 HR’s drive in 200 runs and steal 150 bases? We knew what we were getting and he showed up. So armchair GM, you are starting a team and your choices for center field are: Jacque Jones (not fast, average power, terrible 2 strike hitter), Matt Murton (.300 hitter, no power, bad defense), Angel Pagan (injury prone, glorified bench player), Felix Pie (unproven free swinger, who was batting a whopping .237), and Juan Pierre (since 2000: leads all major leaguers in stolen bases (210), is tied for 2nd in sacrifice hits (56), and is 6th in triples (35). and oh yeah a World Series ring) you are going to choose Jones or Pie? You really know baseball Kermit. You should get a job on ESPN or something. F-ing amateurs.
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Your reading comprehension is almost as good as your argument. I said COUNTING stats are useless, and then I proved it. I’d bet Juan Pierre’s dead arm that every G.M. in MLB would rather have Felix Pie than Pierre as their starting center fielder. If you don’t believe that, you’re as dumb as a Hendry.
And, you’re right. Juan Pierre is better at baseball than I am. That’s a totally valid argument. Fortunately, the Cubs didn’t trade three prospects for me and pay me nearly $6M for a one-year rental of a vastly overrated ballplayer. But I guess that makes sense that I shouldn’t be allowed to evaluate a player because I’m not better than him. By that logic, maybe you should get the f@#$ off my blog and stop critiquing my posts, since I’m quite certain I’m a better writer than you are.
Alas, I guess I shouldn’t take seriously the argument of a guy who thinks that there are people who “know baseball” on ESPN.
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Oh, and by the way, steals are a counting stat, too, jackass. Stealing 58 bases isn’t as impressive when you also cost your team 20 f@#$ing outs to getting them. Like I said, give me enough chances and I could steal 58 bases in the majors. That doesn’t mean I’m a “good base stealer.” Considering how fast Pierre is and how bad his steal percentage is, he’s about as good a base stealer as you are a debater.
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Juan Pierre says - “His OBP is better than Soriano’s”
This might be the root of your confusion. Higher OBP is better. It stands for On Base Percentage. Since Juan is awesome at getting out (see below), you’ll see that Soriano has a better OBP:
Soriano - .362
Pierre - ..303
Of course, with respect to Pierre, we’re more concerned about last year:
Soriano - .351
Pierre - .330
All of this is funny because we’re not that big of fans of the Soriano signing either.
Juan Pierre says - “Name 15 better starting center fielders”
Well, I don’t know how you think him being in the top half makes him good (You were happy with D’s in school perhaps?). I don’t even see how you think he’s better than Lofton. For instance, for this year:
Lofton: .259/.343 /.379
Pierre: .274 /.303/.324
Last Year:
Lofton: .301/.360/.403
Pierre: .292/.330/.388
See how Lofton has a much better OBP and SLG?
Also, Granderson is better (this .280/.338/.561 last .260/.335/.438).
But, to add to the fun, I’ll put forward the following people I’d rather have in CF - Sizemore, Hunter, Beltran, Rowand, A Jones, Damon, Byrnes, Griffey, Matthews Jr, Granderson, Pence, Victorino, Lofton, Wells, Young, Cameron, Church.
I only left out Edmonds due to the injury issues, when he plays he’s about a bajillion times better than JP.
Juan Pierre says - “Juan Pierre (since 2000: leads all major leaguers in stolen bases (210), is tied for 2nd in sacrifice hits (56), and is 6th in triples (35)”
Lets discuss other things he leads the league in:
Outs
2003 NL-511-1
2004 NL-507-2
2005 NL-514-2
2006 NL-532-1
2007 NL-193-1
Caught Stealing
2001 NL-17-1
2002 NL-12-6
2003 NL-20-1
2004 NL-24-1
2005 NL-17-1
2006 NL-20-1
2007 NL-6-3
Seems to me having a CF with a rag doll arm who leads the league in getting out and at getting thrown out trying to steal bases isn’t so fantastic.
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But he had over 200 hits, Pre! 200!
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Basically the difference between Juan Pierre and Nook Logan is (a) that Pierre somehow was given the imprimatur of STARTER, and (b) about $50 million in net worth. Pierre is a thoroughly dreadful out machine, and has no business at the top of a major league lineup with a $9 million salary and a 5 year contract. Bat him 8th on a two year deal at $3M per and you can *barely* live with his deficiencies. What amuses me most is that the Dodgers had a better player at the position for half the price and none of the long term commitment and let him walk. As for A-Ram, if you’d rather have Pierre than Curtis Granderson, I’m obliged to quote Brian Fantana in Anchorman when I say “take it easy champ - why don’t you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while.”
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A-Ram Baller:
Die hard Dodgers fan here and so let me say that before this year I had never thought that I would or could miss Kenny Lofton, but now, oh how I rue the day when he left Big Blue. Juan Pierre is worthless. He is an out-creating machine, nothing more, nothing less. Pierre would otherwise supply all the footage we’d need for our “how not to play CF” video, taking bad routes to the ball, flatfooted and timid on balls hit in front of him, and to sum up, when Hong-Chih Kuo got some Angel who shall remain nameless to hit a shallow fly to dead CF, there was no hesitation in having the slow as molasses Casey Kotchman tag up and score from third, which he did rather easily. That one play sealed the deal re Pierre’s defense, as before that moment, in all my 45 years, I had never seen someone that slow make it home so easy tagging up from third on a fly ball to dead CF that was that shallow. Lastly, not that I want to insult women, as I don’t, but he throws worse than girls. Sorry, one more, but if you love him so much, I know a literal horde of Dodgers fans who wouldn’t even so much as raise a eyebrow if we could have you guys take him back. Mr. Milt Cuyler’s rather accurate report is why I myself have reported rather recently, and rather ad naseum, amongst fellow Dodgers fans, that our management has to be very nearly the worst in all of baseball. And so put one Ned Colletti in the “he gets a lot of hits” crowd, and yeah Ned he does, except that he got his 204 in 699 ABs, he never walks, and so as was reported already, he is truly the living epitome of an out-creating machine.
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Like the canary in a coal mine, guys like Juan Pierre serve a valuable function Unsure if the GM in your town is a moron or not? Here’s a simple test: Was he interested in JP’s “services” when they were available on the free agent market last winter? If the answer to this question was yes, your GM is a moron.
Reasonable minds can differ on the value of a player like Alfonso Soriano or Barry Zito. Sure Soriano is more flash than substance. Yes he barely put up a 900 OPS in his career contract year. No, he’s not likely to have much value towards the back end of his outrageous contract. No, Zito isn’t anything close to the pitcher he was in 2001-2003, nor is he ever going to be that guy again. However, in the near term, these guys can at least play baseball at a reasonably high level, and the hope is that their outrageous long-term deals don’t look as bad as inflation drives salaries even higher in the coming years. Brian Sabean is mildly retarded, but if the value of a guy like Zito in the year 2011 is $15M per, then his $18M salary is merely egregious instead of so bad that you legitimately wonder if a percentage of his salary is tithed to Sabean in the form of a bi-weekly personal check. No, the problem with Pierre is that he is absolutely worthless RIGHT NOW, and other than a few seasons in which he slapped it around enough to get on base 37 percent of the time, he’s always been worthless. Zito and Soriano aren’t good bets to be much in 2011, but can you just imagine how useless Pierre is going to be? That is, if he’s even on a major league roster, a likelihood to which I assess a very low order of probability. I cringed at the Zito and Soriano contracts, but at least there aren’t numerous guys with their respective skills sitting on the end of various major league, AAA, and AA benches making the league minimum. You can shake a tree and find Juan Pierre - the Nook Logan comment I made earlier wasn’t tongue-in-cheek. Look! It’s 85 percent of the production for 5 percent of the price!
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You guys are right, Juan Pierre and his league leading hit total and 58 stolen bases were the reason the Cubs were in last place. And Kenny Lofton is way better than Pierre. Wake up guys. Pierre was a solid center fielder for the Cubs. But not as good as Lance Johnson? or how about Doug Dascenzo? Or Dwight Smith? Maybe Brian McRae? Oh I know Damon Buford. Face it guys he is not as bad as you are making him out to be. You are balming him for Hendry trading players away. The 2006 season was wasted because ofplayers like Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Neifi Perez, John Mabry, Phil Nevin, Freddie Bynum, Michael Restovich, Glandon Rusch, Les Walrond, Roberto Novoa, Ryan Dempster, Ronny Cedeno and so on. We brought Juan Pierre here for a reason and he did what he iid did. Sure he lead the league in outs but the odds were against him. If you lead the league in At-bats you are going to get out more often than you don’t. It is called baseball. Baseball rewards people who get a hit 30% of the time. Juan Pierre got a hit 29% of the time and you wanted to run him out of town. Hate all you want. If in five years Corey Patterson Jr. (Felix Pie) does anything close to what Juan Pierre has done in the past five years then I will say it was a good move to not re-sign him. I’ll bet my net worth that other than maybe Home-runs Pie won’t touch what Pierre has done. Pie’s line in five years .243/15HR/45RBI’s/23SB’s. Get Pie’s nuts out of your mouth guys. He is over rated and as dumb as a door nail.
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I’m so glad you posted this a half hour before Felix hit a hustle double and three-run homer in the first two innings of today’s game. He only needs one more homer to tie Pierre’s 2006 total.
I’m amused that someone defending Juan f@#$ing Pierre is calling Felix Pie “overrated.” Oh, and where exactly is the evidence that Pie is dumb? You were able to determine that based on his 66 Major League at-bats?
You really don’t know baseball, and statistics are dangerous in your hands. The object of the game is to NOT make an out, not necessarily to get a hit. You could go 162-0 with a team batting average of .000 as long as your team was getting on base. That’s how important batting average is. That’s why guys like Adam Dunn can get away with hitting .215 as long as they get on base 35% of the time or more.
“The odds were against him.” What does that even mean? The odds are against EVERYONE using a piece of wood to try to hit a ball whizzing at them at 90+ miles per hour with movement. That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
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You are doing the same thing with Pierre as you did with Alou. Okay you don’t think Pierre was worth the money but that is Jim Hendry’s fault not Pierre’s. Pierre is NOT a power hitter so stop comparing Pie’s slugging to Pierre’s. If you hit .291 and steal 58 bases you are better than 75% of this league. Is Sandberg going to be high on this list because in his last years when he was the highest paid player in baseball he barely hit 25 Homers and Barely hit .300 and didn’t win a Gold Glove after he signed that contract.? So according to you Ryno “blows” or “sucks” or whatever else your thrid grade vocabulary allows you to use.
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“If you hit .291 and steal 58 bases you are better than 75% of this league.”
Wow. Imagine a player who does that and has a .280 OBP (it’s possible to have a lower OBP than BA), gets caught stealing 100 times, and has 0 RBIs (this guy gets a LOT of at-bats). Is he still better than 75% of the league? Keep cherry picking Juan Pierre’s TWO good statistics, and completely ignore the fact that he was a complete turd in all other facets of the game. It makes you look smart.
Did you even READ what the B126 is about? I never said it was solely stat-based. That’s no fun, it’s predictable, it’s boring, and even an idiot like you could compare two numbers, pick the lower one, and rank the players on stats alone. Alou wouldn’t even WHIFF the list if it was solely stats-based. Neither would Rondell White, Nomar, and many other guys.
It must be lonely over there in fantasy land, where Juan Pierre is Lou Brock and you grow naked ladies in your mom’s basement.
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A-Ram, let me make sure I’m following your argument correctly: You’re citing Lance Johnson and Doug Dascenzo as evidence of what exactly? Dascenzo sucked for very little money and very few at-bats and Johnson sucked a lot less than Juan Pierre for a LOT less salary, even factoring inflation.
This is a specious argument we’re having, because the very fact that you don’t realize how close to a replacement level baseball player JP is suggests that you may not be part of the reality-based community. And no, Pierre wasn’t THE reason the Cubs were so awful in 2006; he was just a little part of why the Cubs were so awful in 2006.
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“You are doing the same thing with Pierre as you did with Alou.”
What did we do to Alou? He’s not on the B126. No one has brought him up but you.
Yeah, he likes to pee on his hands. Double yes he likes to slide feet first in the field instead of playing the ball. Triple yes he can’t run the bases at all. But in his time with the cubs he had a decent, a good, and a great year. I don’t think anyone here was unhappy with the production we got out of Alou. I don’t see anyone complaining about him here. You might want to consider the fact that you’re space fucking crazy.
Oh, wait, I think maybe you’re confused. The cub fans were saying “Aloooooou” when he would come up to bat. Not “Booo”. I would think you would have figured it out considering our announcers mentioned it pretty much every at bat he ever had.
“I’ll bet my net worth that other than maybe Home-runs Pie won’t touch what Pierre has done.”
Something tells me your net worth isn’t a whole lot if you’re willing to put it up in a bet on the internet over JP.
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Pre, Alou actually is on the B126. No one agreed with it but me (at least not how low he was ranked).
I’ll still stand behind my belief that Alou’s three years (based on the Cubs’ and Cub fans’ expectations for him) were: awful, mediocre, and great.
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Oh, ok then, you’re dumb BK.
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“based on the Cubs’ and Cub fans’ expectations for him”: Should this read “based on ME and MY expectations for him”? that seems to be what you are about. I agree with almost everyone else on the B126, but JP was on the team ONE YEAR and was not awful. But somehow in your mind he was a bigger bust than Ronny Cedeno? Cedeno has never been good in his THREE years on the Cubs. Jose Hernandez spent two different tenures on the Cubs and was supposed to be a starter and was a bust. All I am saying is that Juan Pierre has no business being listed above half of the people on that list.
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A-Ram, that’s the first thing you’ve said that makes sense. Of COURSE the list is just about me. That’s how I explained it at the beginning. There’s no way I’m going to please everyone in ranking these guys, so I’m just going to please myself. Gross.
I will say, though, that based on the factors I considered, Cedeno was never supposed to be a key part of the team. According to Hendry, Pierre was. And neither Cedeno nor Hernandez cost us three good young pitchers for a one-year rental. It’s a very complicated and completely arbitrary ranking system.
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“Cedeno was never supposed to be a key part of the team.” Is that why we started him the past two seasons? They gave him more chances to shine and got the Bob Brenley hype machine all over him. When we missed out on Furcal he was supposed to be the guy. He was so bad that we got Ceasar Izturis for Christ’s sake. Alex Gonzalez was never supposed to be a key part to the team but he is ranked 3rd for one reason and one reason only, boofing a taylor-made. The list is all about you I know, but just so you know, the list and you are completly wrong.
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Yeah, Cedeno was so important to the team that they batted him 3rd and paid him $5M per year. Cedeno was never supposed to be “the guy.” He’s the guy who holds the stars’ seats at the Oscars. And Cedeno only started for ONE year, Juan. If you don’t like the list, stop reading it, but quit wasting my team reading your ill-informed bullshit. Write your own list. I’m sure it’ll be brilliant. You can put yourself WAY at the top. Go read BCB. You seem like you’d eat up that “Remain calm. Everything is sunshine” bullshit with a spoon.
By the way, in just the past post, you spelled Brenly, Cesar, and tailor wrong. Why exactly am I supposed to take your opinion seriously?
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Kermit,
I don’t remember him fouling off the second pitch. He really had 3 pitch at bats? Jeez, he really wore down opposing pitchers.
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Didn’t know the 8 year old with a computer was a English Teacher
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For a guy who thinks my writing is at the level of an eight-year-old, you sure come back and read it pretty often. Thanks for not trying to refute any of my logical baseball points.
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He’s not any better with the Dodgers. Pierre does one of two things: pop up or ground weakly to the right side, always getting beat by one step.
Good Pierre story:
Autograph day earlier this year against the Pirates. Each level of Dodger Stadium has a different player signing for the fans. My little brother (he’s 10) and I had seats in the Top Deck, so naturally Juan Pierre is the guy signing for us.
My little brother, just in awe to actually shake a hand with a Dodger and still blind to his crappiness, tells Pierre to “hit a triple today.” Juan sort of chuckles and says “Sure!”
Well, instead, Pierre drops a routine fly ball in center in the 3rd, allowing a run to score and effectively setting the tone for the rest of the game. He DID manage to get 2 hits, and of course they were seeing-eye singles.
Pierre can’t catch, can’t throw, I can’t remember the last time he stole a base successfully, and can’t hit. HE DOES make contact, but I would actually bet money that my little brother (remember, 10) could beat him in a HR contest. We get WGN in Los Angeles, Colletti, try watching it sometime.
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Hey, look! Even Grady Little knows Pierre f@#$ing sucks.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070609&content_id=2016517&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb&partnered=rss_mlb
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[...] 10. Juan Pierre [...]
[...] http://hirejimessian.com/index.php/2007/05/29/10-you-make-me-juan-to-puke-pierre/ Search Chicago White Sox Fan Forum => Trades, Rumors and [...]
Okay…
I read this just yesterday…and saw that the argument ended a while back…but I wanted to write in—maybe Kermit and A Ram Baller will see what i post…
Okay…you guys are arguing that Juan Pierre sucks as CF. I would have to agree—and here is why…
A Ram Baller—-in baseball, your only resource that you have are ‘outs.’ They are the only thing that you KNOW will be empty at the end of the game. Yes you get 3 strikes, and strikes are resource in a way, but after 3 strikes—its leads to an out. Not counting extra innings—you have 27 ‘outs’ to score more runs than the other team does with their 27 ‘outs.’
Now before I argue why Juan Pierre is bad—let me defend his defensive ability in CF—I agree with Kermit that he is not an ‘outstanding’ defensive CF’er, but, he is adequate to better than average. His arm is atrocious. In reality, and in the long run, it has been proven, that OF defense impacts the game a lot less than the offense the batter puts out. Now—before you start in on the “oh if u let every ball drop, and misplay every ball, then you aren’t going to give up a lot of runs?”—okay, dont be a douche bag about this—I’m saying, that, as Juan Pierre plays—with his adequate to good OF range, and bad arm…he covers enough ground to maintain an average to above average amont of ‘outs’ that he catches in the OF. He may catch slightly more balls/game than an average CF, but by very very little. Maybe 1 ball every 2-3 games would ANY outstanding CF catch that a ‘normal’ CF not catch.
Now—to the batting…
First I am going to compare statistics—this year and last (since that is basically the argument–him as a 2006 Cub) for Juan Pierre and a few of the CF’s mentioned that he is ‘better’ than and ‘worse’ than in Kermit and ARB’s eyes…
(2007 listed, followed by 2006—its going to be a lot of them just to show something—)
Juan Pierre–
271-304-321 26/8 sb/cs…..321 AB 87 H 14 BB 103 Total Bases (335 Plate App) *NOT including HBP
292-330-388 58/20 sb/cs…..699 AB 204 H 32 BB 271 Total Bases (731 Plate App)
Jacque Jones–
233-294-327 2/1 sb/cs…..202 AB 47 H 16 BB 66 Total Bases (218 Plate App)
285-334-499 9/1 sb/cs…..533 AB 152 H 35 BB 266 Total Bases (568 Plate App)
Kenny Lofton–
290-372-416 16/4 sb/cs…..238 AB 69 H 31 BB 99 Total Bases (269 Plate App)
301-360-403 32/5 sb/cs…..469 AB 141 H 45 BB 189 Total Bases (514 Plate App)
Alfonso Soriano–
305-353-551 10/3 sb/cs…..305 AB 93 H 20 BB 168 Total Bases (325 Plate App)
277-351-560 41/14 sb/cs…..647 AB 179 H 67 BB 362 Total Bases (714 Plate App)
Corey Patterson–
225-278-302 14/4 sb/cs…..222 AB 50 H 13 BB 67 Total Bases (235 Plate App)
276-314-443 45/9 sb/cs…..463 AB 128 H 21 BB 205 Total Bases (484 Plate App)
Chris Duffy–
249-313-357 13/4 sb/cs…..241 AB 60 H 21 BB 86 Total Bases (262 Plate App)
255-317-338 26/1 sb/cs…..314 AB 80 H 19 BB 106 Total Bases (333 Plate App)
Curtis Granderson–
294-346-564 9/0 sb/cs…..296 AB 87 H 24 BB 167 Total Bases (320 Plate App)
260-335-438 8/5 sb/cs…..596 AB 155 H 66 BB 261 Total Bases (662 Plate App)
Chris Young–
*2006 sample size irrelevant*
242-281-435 8/0 sb/cs…..248 AB 60 H 11 BB 108 Total Bases (259 Plate App)
Mike Cameron–
264-324-444 8/4 sb/cs…..295 AB 78 H 24 BB 131 Total Bases (319 Plate App)
268-355-482 25/9 sb/cs…..552 AB 148 H 71 BB 266 Total Bases (623 Plate App)
————-Now, that I’m Finally done with all that…
these are the players argued that Juan Pierre is BETTER than…
now, for my argument…
I am now going to adjust these stats so that counting stats dont matter (Batting Average, Stolen Bases, Caught Stealing)
and here is how I am going to present this to you…
A players On-Base % is the amount of times the player reached base divided by the total plate appearances…and slugging percentage which is total bases divided by total at-bats…
and so I am going to present you with a new idea of how to look at these statistics…
batting average is a meaningless statistic in that—it DOES NOT affect the game and/or your team’s play or the ability to win a baseball game…the ONLY real thing that matters is the ability to get on (and stay on base) in the process of scoring a run…remember—NOT making outs is THE critical factor in the game….
My version of these Formulas:
On-Base %—will be the same in that—it is dependant on the amount the amount of times a player reaches base in his total AB’s…but I will be SUBTRACTING a “caught stealing” from the amount of times the player reached because the player is no long on base to score a run…
i.e. My Formula for On-Base %
Hits + Walks + HBP - Caught Stealing / Plate App
For Slugging Percentage—is calculated by dividing the Total Bases a player reaches by Total At-Bats (not Plate App)….Slugging % is a valuable part of the game in that, a player with a higher slugging % generally represents a player with ‘more power’ and reach 2nd base on a hit easier (double) or has a greater percent chance of hitting a Home Run—scoring a Run before the usage of all 27 Outs…my differentiation will include Stolen Bases onto Total Bases…in essence, a player who hits a single, and successfully steals 2nd Base, has basically hit a double when you take away the counting statistic of Stolen Base….
i.e. My Formula for Slugging Percentage
Total Bases + Stolen Bases / At Bats
Now…let’s re-adjust the statistics to find out just how good Juan (and just how good the other CF’s) compare with each other…
Adjusted Statistics—factoring out MEANINGLESS counting statistics: Batting Average, Hits, Stolen Bases, Caught Stealing…and assessing the players ability to reach (AND remain on) base and slugging %…and finally—it will calibrate itself into “Production”—which is the value of each player—based on their ‘adujsted OBP’ and their adjusted SLG’…Production will weigh MUCH heavier on OBP–because as I’ve said, the rate at which players get on base is MUCH more important than Slugging%…(and I do understand that slugging is very important—hence, it is one of my 2 VALUABLE statistics)—because the outcome of a game does not mean continuously reaching 1st base and moving station to station…because slugging can and does aid a team to score a run when the percentages of scoring are low…(2 outs runner on 1st, nobody on base, etc.)…but he ability to get on base is most important, and enables your team the highest probabilty to score, making OBP the more imporant of the 2 statistics—because, remember, the ability to not make outs is the most important facet of the game…therefore—OBP will be weighed rate of 67% to 33% over slugging—
…all of which apply to not making ‘outs’ and wasting the game’s most valuable resource:
: *2006 season rated followed by current, 2007 season*
OBP = On Base %
SLG = Slugging %
PRD = Production (OBP*2) + (SLG) / 3
Juan Pierre:
2007 OBP: 278 SLG: 402 PRD: 319 AVG PRD: 337
2006 OBP: 295 SLG: 471 PRD: 354
Jacque Jones:
2007 OBP: 284 SLG: 337 PRD: 302 AVG PRD: 346
2006 OBP: 327 SLG: 516 PRD: 390
Kenny Lofton:
2007 OBP: 357 SLG: 483 PRD: 399 AVG PRD: 396
2006 OBP: 352 SLG: 471 PRD: 392
Alfonso Soriano:
2007 OBP: 338 SLG: 548 PRD: 408 AVG PRD: 416
2006 OBP: 325 SLG: 623 PRD: 424
Corey Patterson:
2007 OBP: 251 SLG: 365 PRD: 289 AVG PRD: 331
2006 OBP: 289 SLG: 540 PRD: 373
Chris Duffy:
2007 OBP: 294 SLG: 411 PRD: 333 AVG PRD: 335
2006 OBP: 294 SLG: 420 PRD: 336
Curtis Granderson:
2007 OBP: 347 SLG: 595 PRD: 430 AVG PRD: 399
2006 OBP: 326 SLG: 451 PRD: 368
Chris Young:
2007 OBP: 274 SLG: 468 PRD: 339 AVG PRD: 339
2006 *Stats Irrelevant*
Mike Cameron:
2007 OBP: 307 SLG: 471 PRD: 362 AVG PRD: 381
2006 OBP: 337 SLG: 527 PRD: 400
and so, what do we gather from this?….
based on the AVERAGE production level:
of the CF’s on this list…they are most valuable in this order (with their 2007 salaries—just for fun):
Alfonso Soriano: 416 10 M
Curtis Granderson: 399 410 K !!
Kenny Lofton: 396 6 M
Mike Cameron: 381 7 M
Jaque Jones: 346 5.6 M
Chris Young: 339 380 K
Juan Pierre: 337 7.5 M
Chris Duffy: 335 395 K
Corey Patterson: 331 4.3 M
and there you have it…juan pierre is just a SLIGHT upgrade over CHRIS DUFFY…who is only a SLIGHT upgrade over COREY PATTERSON…
As Far as the Jacque Jones debate: So far in 2007, Jacque has the LOWEST production of any player on the list…yet his average (from a strong 390–which would put him in the top half of the list) places him basically middle of the pack—yet higher than Juan Pierre…
Soriano is the best CF on THIS list…and I may test others later on—BUT…Curtis Granderson is having a season (430 Production) that is the best of any player (Soriano’s 2006: 424 was 2nd)…
I was even surprised at that…
I would be even more surprised—if he was a free agent this year if he even SNIFFED soriano’s contract numbers…goes to show the intelligence of GM’s and the importance of NAME recognition…just ask juan pierre (7.5 M salary)…
Later I will do this for ALL the CF’s…and for any random players…such as ‘Lead-off Hitters’…etc etc…
[Reply]
Too bad Soriano isn’t a CF. Listen you can do your formulas and say what stats are more important than others but the bottom line is that when you get a Juan Pierre you are paying for three things. 1. He makes contact, the guy almost never strikes out. 2. He will steal 50+ bases a year, he will get caught he share but he turns singles into doubles by stealing a base. 3. He has a lot of range in the outfield. Felix Pie might be good one day, but I would rather have JP leading off and Soriano batting behind him. Maybe those 14 solo shots would be two-run homers instead. Thats value not your formulas. Now here comes the bashing so bring it on. I really think none of you have a job so this will go on all day.
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I really only have a few things…
1st…strikeouts dont matter (that much)…they are an out…as useless as any other out…
2nd…i added in his SB totals into the formula as a good thing…
3rd…i subtracted the CS into the formula as bad thing…its just that i used them both as part of the formula to make sense…
i.e. a caught stealing negates on-base percentage…while a SB adds up to SLG %…b/c, like you said, a SB from 1st to 2nd is like a double…so i added that on to slugging percentage…
the amount of K’s a player has is hardly meaningful…outs are outs…you have 27 to outs to score more runs than your opponent…
you do not ‘use’ outs…u try, at all costs, to avoid being out…
the formula shows that you can rank players as to how well they ‘do not get out’ and, if some get out more than others, hitting for extra bases, hitting HR’s, stealing bases aid them…but since this happens at such a lower rate than actually getting on base (a player is league AVG. if his OBP is 350, on base is MUCH more valuable than slugging)…
juan pierre gets ‘hits’…i agree…he has the most on this list with 204…
but juan pierre’s ability to get on base, in the overall-grand scheme of things, and being a valuable player, is less than many others on this list…
i am not saying juan pierre is a bad baseball player…i happen to like watching him sometimes, but, the reality is…if i owned a major league baseball team, i would want many other players roaming CF before juan pierre…and many of them reside on the list of players you pointed out as being inferior to pierre…
Pierre may have more ‘range’ than your typical CF…i do agree with you…he has world class wheels…but the fact is…the other players on this list are not, for the most part ’slow’ and their speed is not leaps and bounds different from Pierre’s…alas, pierre can track down MORE fly balls than the ‘average’ CF…but not much more so to make a difference that justifies carrying his bat in the lineup…
Note* Soriano was put on this list in reference to you speaking of Pierre being a better Leadoff Hitter…
Note* Never use strikeouts as a deterrent to a player…I think it is VERY safe to say, that the cubs having Soriano leading off is much better than pierre…although it doesnt happen often I think we can all agree that we like when Soriano leads off the game with a HR and the cubs are winning 1-0 right off the bat…
Juan Pierre is a good baseball player. He is better than many other team’s options at CF. He is just not nearly as good as many people think. His glove is good. I agree. But not to the point that it warrants his bat being in the lineup everyday over the other players on this list…
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Let me sum up the last few posts for people who find Matt a bit long-winded:
Matt: *remarkably sophisticated system showing why Pierre is, offensively, pretty much a drag overrated because of his speed*
A-Ram Baller: You are wrong because I said so. He steals bases and stretches singles into doubles. I am going to conveniently ignore all his caught stealings, which stretch singles into outs. Strikeouts are the worst kind of outs you can make, apparently. I am capable of posting from work but everyone else here is unemployed.
Everyone: *smacks forehead*
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A-Ram Baller is obviously right! why else would he repeatedly come on this site to make his points? to be anoying or be a douche? because he has nothing better to do? to make himself feel big? i think not! why can’t we all just sit back and look at the facts and try and work this out? maybe we all can learn a little something about ourselves…
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“why else would he repeatedly come on this site to make his points”
Isn’t that why all of you come to this site? To try to have discussions about the Cubs, right? I stumbled onto this site through another site that I was a big fan of: “Fire Dusty Baker”. While looking around I found that Juan Pierre was listed 10th on the 126 worst Cubs of Bad Kermit’s lifetime. I found that to be wierd. I have been a Cubs fan my whole life and I am very upset with how after 2003 “fans” love to belittle them. I tried to make a point that JP’s ONE YEAR in a Cubs uniform wasn’t bad enough for him to warrent a bottom 10 ranking. Because of this I have become the whipping boy for all you “2003ers”. Whatever, block me from the chatroom, approve my comments, or do whatever you have to do to make YOURSELF fell big. The bottom line is that I am pretty sure you made this site for Cubs fans, so why do and your croonies try to put yourselves on this higher level of Cubs “Fan-ness?”
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You know what’s a good way to prove you’re a “fan”? Tell everyone who disagrees with you that they’re not a “fan.” Also, always put “fan” in quotes.
At least that’s what I heard.
A-Ram, you’re blocked from the Shoutbox because I warned you not to impersonate other posters since it’s annoying, confusing, disruptive, and incredibly juvenile, and you responded by impersonating ME. I don’t give a shit if you make fun of my writing or disagree with me, but you WILL respect the ONE rule I have for the site. Have I blocked any of your mindless and insulting comments? If you promise to behave and argue in a civilized (albeit totally uneducated) manner, I’ll gladly unblock you from the Shoutbox. But don’t go into my backyard, piss in my pool, and cry foul when there are consequences.
Oh, and lighten the f@#$ up.
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I could really care less about the fucking shoutbox or your rules. It’s not that I don’t believe you are a fan, (which you must have to be to make this site), it is just a lot Cubs fans since 2003 have gotten this chip on their shoulder that after almost 100 years of not winning that they have all the answers. It’s the same people who booed Sammy when he struck out and cheered when he hit homers. Don’t get me wrong Sammy was a roid/cork fiend, but he was good for the Cubs. But you, Kermit, have totally gone drunk with power with this site. So drunk that you probably are not even reading this, you are just writing your rebuttal that has something to do with me being uneducated or something. So you can dish it but you can’t take it? Listen I liked the Dusty site, the Lou site was cool, but now you are on one. I could really care less about what you think about the Cubs because you are the one who needs to be educated about what the Chicago Cubs are. You really think after a 5 game win streak that the Cubs are going to the World Series? I hope that message to the MLB was a joke, but I think you really feel that way. Come-on, really? I really hope that the Cubs do take the Brewers for the Central but I don’t see it happening if they don’t get some serious bullpen help. So there is no need for me to “lighten the fuck up” because all I have been doing keeping it light. You have fun bashing me in your comeback, but remember who really needs to lighten up. I work and when I get some down time I come here and see what you are talking about and maybe try to throw 2 cents here and there. It seems to me all you have is down time because you are on here all day every day in that shoutbox chatting like thirteen year-olds on myspace. I should lighten up? Wow, that was the funniest thing I saw all day.
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So, before I wasn’t a fan because I bashed the Cubs. Now I’m not a fan because I’m rooting for them to take the Brewers?
You make some great arguments.
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Come on man, read. I didn’t say you are not a fan, i said that you are a fair weather fan. Get it straight.
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You forgot to use quotation marks around “fan.”
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First of all A-Ram Baller i’m on your side, so why do you attack me?
And A-Ram did you say you liked the Fire Lou Piniella site?
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When did i attack you bocaj?
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LOL I found this site while watching a Dodgers’ game and being frustrated by the terribleness of Juan Pierre. This was right at the top of the list when I googled “Juan Pierre sucks”.
Bad Kermit is spot on with his analysis of Pierre. He hits the nail on the head completely even down to the mannerisms and types of AB’s that Pierre has.
A-Ram: You really must not have a clue how any stats work. Pierre is well below average offensively. You choose SB’s and BA as the be-all and end-all of baseball stats. Those really aren’t very good stats for determining true offensive value. The goal in baseball is to score runs. You score runs by getting on base and then coming around to score. Pierre is on base barely over 30% of the time. That is terrible for a leadoff man (or any batter besides a pitcher).
One other question for A-Ram: Is your real name Ned Colletti?
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As terrible as you think JP is, he would be a lot better then the revolving door in center we have now.
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Wrong again, friend.
Jacque Jones in CF: .254/.327/.408
Angel Pagan in CF: .258/.320/.472
Juan Pierre in CF: .279/.312/.332
You know, there are simple ways to avoid making statements like this…
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What is the last stat? OPS? Sorry I don’t want Jock or Pagan playing everyday.
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Oh, God, if it was OPS, they’d be truly HORRIBLE. It’s SLG. I don’t want either of those morons in CF, either, but they’d be better than Pierre.
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JP is never going to hit homers, but he is better than Jock or Pagan no matter what numbers you throw out there. Is JP ideal? No. Would he help us now? Yes, especialy since our lead-off guy is down for the rest of the season. (I don’t buy the month, he tore his quad. That is a big injury. Aramis strained his a couple years back in like the middle of Aug and didn’t come back. The Cubs are just saying that he will be back so the collective Cubs Fans don’t jump off the Hancock Building.)
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“he is better than Jock or Pagan no matter what numbers you throw out there”
A-Ram, you’ve been so good lately, and now you’re slipping into “I am Juan Pierre” mode again. I’m using stats to disprove your argument that JP would help the Cubs better than their current options do. You haven’t shown a single stat which refutes it, and your only argument is, “Don’t use stats.” Why not? I understand JP doesn’t hit home runs. Neither does Jock. If Pierre is not going to hit home runs, though, he’d better get on base a lot more often to make up for his absurd lack of power. He doesn’t. He sucks. Get over it.
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So JP has got on base less THIS YEAR than Jock/Pagan/Pie? Jocks OBP is the same as JP, and Pagan’s and Pie’s are less as of today. Not mention Stolen Bases (which you call irrevelent). But whatever, Juan Pierre slept with your girlfriend or something and now you swear he is the worst thing possible. We just called up Corey Patterson’s little less talented brother. I just don’t seriously think that what we have in center this year is any better than JP. That is all I am saying.
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Once again (try reading it more slowly this time):
Jock in CF: .272/.337/.430 (.767 OPS)
Pagan in CF: .240/.297/.440 (.737 OPS)
Pierre in CF: .277/.314/.331 (.645 OPS)
Pie in CF: .215/.272/.348 (.620 OPS)
Cubs overall in CF: .244/.303/.400 (.703 OPS)
You said “As terrible as you think JP is, he would be a lot better then the revolving door in center we have now.”
It’s simply not true. Both Jock and Pagan have been better in CF in 2007 than Pierre. Pie has been slightly worse (although certainly not by much), and the Cubs CF position as a whole has an OPS nearly 60 points higher than Pierre’s. Give it up unless you’re going to come with something stronger than the nonsense you’re throwing out here.
And I’d rather JP had slept with my girlfriend than have his dick in my mouth like you do.
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What about SB’s? You don’t expect Pierre to have a bigger OPS than those guys. But in general JP gets on base more, it doesn’t matter if Jock is playing CF or RF, his numbers are worse than JP’s overall. This is not nonsense, this is you saying your opinion backing it up with the stats that YOU think are important. I personaly don’t think SB’s are this throw away stat that you try to say they are but whatever it’s your opinion. So if all you have is that Pierre doesn’t hit for power and that is what makes him worse than what we have now then fine. We WOULD be better off if JP was playing CF for us right now, sorry. I am not JP’s biggest fan or anything we just have a hole out there that has not been filed since we got rid of him. So I wonder why did we get rid of him, because he hits the ball in play? Steals bases? Gets 200 hits? Strikes out fewer than anyone else in the league? All of those things Jock/Pagan/Pie/E.Patterson could not do in a simulated season of “MLB 07 The Show”. “It’s simply not true. Both Jock and Pagan have been better in CF in 2007 than Pierre”. Why? because they hit for power. This is not a home-run hitting contest. Overall stat wise, in all posistions, JP IS having a better year then those guys. It just makes YOU, not me, look like there is a dick in you mouth.
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One more thing, does AVG. not mean anything to you to? Because according to your Stats, JP is hitting almost 30 points higher then the clowns we have now.
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No, actually, average doesn’t mean a whole lot to me OR ANYONE ELSE WHO KNOWS A DAMN THING ABOUT BASEBALL. I would take an entire team of guys with .000 averages and 1.000 OBP any day of the week, and my team would go 130-32, if Jason Marquis started 32 games.
Look, I’m sick of arguing with you, since you don’t really listen to anything, you have the baseball intellect of either a 6-year-old girl or an 85-year-old shut-in, and you don’t respond to or try to refute my arguments. I could get the same satisfaction out of arguing with a brick wall. You’re like a mindless parrot, shouting “200 hits!” “stolen bases” over and over again. If you want to cherry pick the ONE statistic (stolen bases) that Pierre has better numbers for, so be it. But the numbers support my argument that the Cubs CF revolving door has been better than Pierre this year. Oh, and go read Moneyball. Statistically, stolen bases are almost completely useless. You know who else is in love with the stolen base? Joe Morgan and Dusty Baker. I’ll stay on Bill James’ side, you stay on those imbeciles’ side, and we’ll see who comes out ahead at the end.
Not to blow your mind with yet another reason your argument makes about as much sense as a Joe Morgan broadcast, defensively Pagan, Jock, and Pie are all far better in CF than Pierre. Far better. But I’m sure you’ll have some way to defend that rag-arm 12-year-old for that, too. Say hi to Pierre for me when you see him. Let him know he should be ashamed of himself for spending a dime of the money the Cubs gave him to suck in center field. And, seriously, I think you’d be better off reading Bleed Cubbie Blue, where you might find one misguided soul like you who actually thinks Juan Pierre was more valuable than the sweat band on Derrek Lee’s hat.
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A-Ram Baller…Shut the hell up. You will never win this argument. Juan Pierre SUCKED for the Cubs. You get it? He SUCKED! All 200 of those hits came in July, August and September when they didn’t even MATTER.
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Plus, he swings Jacque Jones style. Do you like Jacque Jones too?
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Yeah the guy had 204 hits last season. He also had 699 at bats, more than anyone else in the league. If you took every guy that had at least 400 at bats last season and figure how many hits they’d have in 699 at bats given their 2006 AVG, JP’s 204 hits would rank 69th in the league. Hell Matt Murton would have 207 hits last season.
Juan Pierre hardly walks. True he hardly strikes out either. What he does do…..a lot, is ground out. Last year he led the majors in ground outs with 280. Second on that list was Luis Castillo with 237. He had 43 more than the guy in second! Hell he’s already got a commanding lead on the pack this season with 196, 34 more than second place Castillo.
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You are missing the point guys. I am not saying that JP is the best CF ever, I am saying that I think that the team could use him right now. Think about it. JP gets on 200+ times in a season maybe steals a couple bases and you have Soriano hitting behind him, those are RBI chances that we don’t have with the Jock/Pie/Pagan/misc. douchebag option in CF now. That all I am saying. You want to harp on JP because his OPS or his SLG aren’t high but you don’t expect that from him. You hope that he gets on steals a base and gets driven in. That is all I am saying. When you lose a lot of one run games I would rather have a guy in JP who will put the ball in play then Jock who is totally useless.
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