Defending Pie
No, this is not a Jim Hendry Treatise.
This is a defense of the Cubs’ centerfielder–or, rather, the Cubs’ twenty-three year old benchwarmer.
I’m not convinced that Felix Pie is going to be a superstar. Hell, I’m not convinced he’s still not gonna suck. But I find it difficult to comprehend how certain some people are that Pie is already a bust, when he’s made a grand total of two-hundred and seventeen trips to the dish–not even half of what would be considered a full big-league season.
Thursday marks the one-year anniversary of Pie’s major league debut. Pressed into service because of Alfonso Soriano’s early-season injury, Pie handled most of the starts in centerfield during his first two weeks, after which Lou began to use him as a late-inning defensive replacement for Mr. Worm Burner himself, Jacques Jones. Pie was only hitting .233 when he was relegated to the bench, but he had only had 43 big-league at-bats.
Eventually, Pie was sent back down to Iowa where he could get consistent at-bats. He came back up in early June, and this time Lou stuck him in the starting lineup for a full week, where Pie went 12-for-35 in his first seven games back with a homer and three doubles before back-to-back oh-fers earned him a day off. Back in the lineup the next game on June 13th, Pie started to seriously cool off, his average plummeting from .272 to down to .219 on June 29th, at which point Lou put him back on the bench, where he would escape only as a defensive replacement until he was sent back to Iowa for a second time on July 7th. Pie was hitting .362 for the season in Des Moines when he was called back up a third time early August after Angel Pagan came down with an oh-so-unfortunate case of itchy butt. Pie started all four games in Denver, collecting four hits and, with the exception of one game in Phoenix in late August, these constituted his last for starts of the season.
Heading into 2008, it seemed that the Cubs were going to give Pie a legitimate shot to play every day in centerfield, in spite of the phoney-baloney ruse of the whole SAM FULD! ridiculousness. Having easily outperformed the three foot, seven inch Fuld, Pie appeared to have the centerfield job locked up. However, the Cubs went out and acquired Reed Johnson right before Opening Day. This has actually proved to be a very good move for the Cubs, as Johnson has been able to handle the starts against left-handed pitching and–more importantly–his presence has provided Lou the opportunity to stop Ryan Theriot from making so many goddamn outs in the 2-hole. However, over the course of the first two weeks, it seems that Pie is getting lost in the shuffle. After committing the crime of not going 15-for-15 in his first four games (Pie instead collected three hits, one in each game except for the fourth), Lou sat him against the right-handed Roy Oswalt on April 5th. Against a proven veteran like Oswalt, that was fine. But then Lou decided to sit Pie again, the following day, against the immortal Brandon Backe, another right-hander. As the following six games would have the Cubs facing 4 southpaws (and, presumably, Reed Johnson starts), it seemed strange that Lou would sit Pie down right before this.
Since his last start April 4th, Pie has gotten one more start–and went one-for-four against Pittbsurgh–although he did come off the bench and slap a game-winning hit against the Pirates the night before.
Pie has started in five games, and gotten a hit in four of them. Conversely, everyone’s favorite lil’ hardscrabble GRIT machine, Theriot, has started in ten games, and gone hitless in exactly half of them.
I bring up Theriot because Pie’s problem here relates to the fact that the Cubs have no proven depth at shortstop. Consequently, it’s easier to sit Pie than it is to sit Theriot, as Theriot’s replacement–Ronny Cedeno–only has eleven brain cells and sucks, while Pie’s replacement–Johnson–is a proven big-league player. If Pie and Theriot are both struggling–and they had been at the beginning of the season–it’s hard to carry both of them everyday in the lineup. Even though Pie’s defense in center is demonstrably better than Theriot’s at shortstop, the lineup is better off with Johnson and Theriot than Pie and Dumbass Cedeno.
What Felix Pie needs is a Reed Johnson-type at shortstop.
Still, it would be nice if Lou went with a straight platoon or at least stopped sitting Pie for great stretches at a time; and if he won’t, then Pie needs to go back to AAA. Of course has nothing to prove at Iowa–he’s demonstrated that he can hit at every level of the minor leagues thus far, but starting him twice a week is only going to prove the argument that his detractors are making that he’s a bust. It would be hard for any young player to look good without playing every day. If Lou is going to eschew a straight platoon and transform Pie into a spot starter and defensive replacement, then the kid needs to go back to Des Moines and play every day before his confidence gets irretrievably lost.
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I heard a caller on the radio who noted that hitting Pie in the #8 hole also ensured that he wasn’t going to see a lot of pitches to hit, which might be true, but given that he can’t seem to lay off of high inside stuff, I’m not sure how you can justify hitting him any higher right now. But I agree that Pie’s sample size is awfully small and that he hasn’t really been given a consistent look.
I couldn’t agree more…except for the hate of Cedeno.
I guess I just think difference in Reed-Theriot and in Pie-Cedeno may be pretty large. In fact, I think Pie-Cedeno has a much higher upside than Reed-Theriot, as I think both Pie and Cedeno are simply better baseball players than Reed and Theriot.
I think if you give both Pie and Cedeno a month full of at bats, they’d outproduce Johnson and Theriot by a long shot. Having a straight platoon for Pie and Johnson may prove to be very productive (and I agree about starting Reed against Oswalt, but against Backe? geez).
But, I do have a Chuck-like agenda against both Reed and the Scrapster, so, take this for what it’s worth.
If my rotation abacus is correct, Pie’s going to have another 3 game stretch on the bench. Looks like the Pirates will be throwing Snell, Gorzellany, and Duke out there this weekend. I think a straight platoon is a good idea, but the way the LHP have been bunched up in the early going hasn’t helped Felix in getting a good stretch of playing time.
Felix Pie is already a bust and Rich Hill needs to move into the bullpen after TWO starts with a 5.00 era. Two friggin starts. As much as Pie will frustrate you at the plate, his defense in CF and Reed Johnson’s history against right handed pitching (.267/.328/.710) SHOULD give him the starting gig every goddamn game against righties. For what it’s worth, I hate Ronny Cedeno with all my being, but he’s a better hitter than Ryan Theriot.
Mike, Pie needs to play. I like the straight platoon idea, in fact, I thought that was the whole purpose of getting Johnson. We really need a shortstop, though. Neither Theriot or Cedeno impress me. Sure Theriot has the cool name plus the scrappiness factor and Cedeno seems to mash at the Triple A level, but Ronnie can’t seem to grasp the whole fielding thing. Or baserunning. I’d like to say that he could figure it out, but we’ve had the guy on and off for the past couple years and he doesn’t seem to be getting it. I’m still hoping we can snag Brian Roberts somehow, even though that seems like a real long shot, considering who’s holding the reins in Baltimore, but to me, that solves the problem. DeRosa becomes the everyday shortstop at that point. Granted, he’s not a natural shortstop, but he plays decent enough defense to the handle the spot and you can’t take his bat out of the lineup. At that point, you can afford to give Felix more at bats and adopt a stricter platoon with him and Johnson. That’s just a pipedream, though. Even if we did get Roberts, the Cubs still would probably continue to play Theriot at short.
Big Flax,
I wrote this post in about 80 minutes over my oatmeal this morning. Consequently, I forgot to mention that Lou had been doing Pie no favors by batting him 8th, although I intended to when I thought up the topic; thanks for bringing that up. People like to point to the fact that Pie has got zero walks as proof that he’s Corey Patterson part deux. I’m confident he’s not. Although it’s only anectdotal, I insists that Pie demonstrated a better eye than Patterson last season. Some may recall that crazy Cubs/Mariners game at Wrigley that was lost when Jones threw an 88-hopper to Barrett, who fumbled it, allowing Jose Vidro to score. Earlier in the game, in the bottom of the 8th I think, Pie came up with the bases loaded and worked the coutn full before taking a borderline strike 3. As frustrating as that was, it was more encouraging than seeing some kid hack his way into a K. I guess that makes me the Anti-Dusty.
Regardless, it’s simultaenously difficult to draw walks and also get good pitches to hit while hitting in front of the pitcher.
I’m sorry, I could hear you over the sounds of BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
“couldn’t”
Damnit.
Yeah, you messed that one up.
I’m with you, Pen. It’s yet another year that the Central is totally winnable, and the Cubs just don’t have time to coddle Pie until he hits out of his current .182/.217/.182 line (even though the feebs at the four-letter will probably tell you what a SOLID .182/.217/.182 line it is). Christ, even Bobby Hill had a better first 200 at-bats than Pie has.
Until they show me otherwise, I have zero faith in the Cub system for developing position players. Who is the best one they’ve developed since Grace? Hinske? The guy who peaked in his first Major League season?
If Pie is not Corey II, then his numbers better damn well start reflecting that really quickly. Until they do, I trust Lou to start the better option. Fair or unfair, baseball is a game that demands that these kids capitalize on every opportunity they get. Pie is not doing that.
If he gets a hit a game and averages five at bats per game…ugh.
I think Felix should get to play, too. Still, I think my favorite moment of the year was when Lou yanked both Rich Hill and Felix in the fifth inning of a game against the Pirates only to see the Cubs come back to win going away.
What can I say, I love that cantankerous old coot.
I reiterate that Pie is 23 and has a career .300/.358/.468 in the minors.
But let’s pull the plug now because his first 200 AB’s in the bigs don’t measure up with Bobby Hill.
What?
If Pie is not Corey II, then his numbers better damn well start reflecting that really quickly.
Why doens’t the same apply to Theriot then? His numbers are ass-eatariffic.
Also, Pie’s numbers ain’t gonna reflect anything other than Mario Mendoza’s if he doesn’t get consistent playing time. Rather than just rashly pull the plug on him, then, they should send him down. He’s got even less value on their bench, his game winning pinch-hit notwithstanding.
I’m going to side with Mike D. here. While I understand that the urgency for playoff spot this year make playing Pie every day and waiting for him to come around untenable, he’s got to get more than two freakin’ starts per week. Period. There’s absolutely no way on earth that ANY player is going to improve their batting average playing two out of every six or seven games in the eight-hole. Much less a 23-year-old who spent half of last season on the Des Moines shuttle.
(And while we’re at it, someone please point out to me ANY National League hitter who tore it up out of the eight-slot over the course of a season recently. Thank you.)
The other reason the “bust” analogy doesn’t fly is that Pie brings a lot to the table defensively. Reed Johnson is competent (although if you think he’s not going to start regressing to his below-mediocre career mean at the plate soon, you’re kidding yourself), but he’s not going to run down a ball hit sharply to the gap in a critical situation.
I’d also buy into the “he can’t hit” meme a bit more if he hadn’t nearly crushed one into the Allegheny River the other night in Pittsburgh (which would have saved the Cubs a good six innings of work that night). I’m not apologizing for the break on DeRosa’s homer yesterday, in large part because I think Pie got jobbed on that HR in Pittsburgh (ruled foul, but it sure as hell looked fair on every replay I saw). The guy really just looks like he’s pressing right now. His animated reaction to the game-winning hit that same night appeared to be of the “about fuckin’ time” variety to me, courtesy of a young player furious at himself.
I’m not saying all is well, and I’m not saying that he doesn’t have to produce. But good lord, put the guy in a position where he at least has a decent chance for success and will see some hittable pitches once in a while before writing him off…
What does my comment have to do with Theriot? I’ve been wanting him replaced for quite some time now. There’s arguably no one on the roster better than Theriot right now, though, who can play SS (only because Cedeno is so goddamn stupid). There is someone better than Pie.
I don’t get how Pie is supposed to be given anything at this point? Matt Murton has put up better numbers at the MAJOR LEAGUE level than Pie has at the MINOR LEAGUE level. Yet the franchise does whatever they can to not give that kid a chance. Other than the incessant hype surrounding the kid. What has Felix really proven up til now? Next year the cubbie blogsphere will be up in arms because Ryan Harvey and his 5 tool prowess “isnt getting a fair shot”. This isnt intermurals people. MLB baseball is dog eat dog. Just because McFail,Fleita and Hendry told us a kid is going to be good. Doesnt mean that the kid is any good.
What’s your point?
Jason Dubois’ minor league numbers:
.288/.359/.521
Corey Patterson’s minor league numbers:
.282/.334/.499
At no point did I suggest “pulling the plug” on Pie. I’m just saying the kid isn’t going to stick if he doesn’t start making the most of his opportunities, whether he’s hitting 8th, 7th, or in Iowa. Making excuses for why the kid looks utterly clueless at the plate is sort of four-lettery.
APPROVED.
We have been told that Dopirak, Hill, Choi, Patterson (x2), Kelton, Dubois, Orie (just to name a few) would be star MLB players.
Corey is the MOST SUCCESSFUL player on that list. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me every single time you’re going to bring up the “next great thing,” and shoot me. As aaronb pointed out, Murton, one of the BEST hitters the Cubs have had in their minor league system (who, of course, is a product of the Red Sox system) gets absolutely no respect from the front office. I have zero faith in this organization’s ability to evaluate hitters. I sure hope Pie is the exception to the rule, but I don’t see how you can act surprised, Mike, that I’m cynical that he will be.
Those Patterson numbers aren’t much of a defense. .334 OBP? Holy crap, thanks for reminding how retarded this organization was has been in giving that strutting douchebag such an underserved promotion.
Now excuse me while I draw the blinds down here.
Well, if minor league numbers are all we’re worried about, let’s give Roosevelt Brown a call. His career .300/.354/.501 minor league line is better than both of these chumps’.
If you’re going to argue that Patterson’s minor league numbers aren’t a good defense, then I’d argue that Pie’s numbers aren’t much of a defense, either. Patterson’s minor league OBP, while lower than Pie’s, is 52 points higher than his batting average. Pie’s is 58 points higher. And Patterson slugged 31 points better than Pie did.
Besides, I only put Patterson’s numbers up there because Pie’s position and style of play invites the comparisons. Can you explain away Jason Dubois’ numbers?
I think it’s surprising that you’re suggesting that Patterson got an “undeserved promotion” while suggesting that poor Felix would be fine, but for how mean old Lou is using him.
Pie’s minor league OPS: .826
Patterson’s minor league OPS: .833
Who exactly got the undeserved promotion? Like I said, I sure hope you give me a huge “I told you so” by the end of Felix Pie’s career. But I’m not jumping on the NSBBandWGN for Pie until he actually starts looking like a Major League Baseball player.
One last point. Soto was worse than both of these guys in the minors. In his first 122 MLB at-bats, he’s hitting .311/.368/.533. Just saying.
I say they trade Pie now before the Cubs expose him as a fraud.
Or maybe turn him into a fraud.
Pretty sure with the Cubs it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Ryan Harvey will prove you wrong. You’ll see. He’s toolsy.
I wasn’t really interested in dragging this out, Kerm. Hence my redirecting the discussion to Cubs’ crappy management with a shot of self-deprecation.
But since you insist on splitting a grape with an axe and running through my stop sign, I guess I’ll take the bait…
Pie’s minor league OPS: .826
Patterson’s minor league OPS: .833
Who exactly got the undeserved promotion?
First of all, what must be taken into consideration when looking at the minor league numbers of Pie and Patterson is that Patterson got off to a phenomenal start, going .320/.358/.592 at Lansing in his minor-league season. The Baseball Cube does not provide Rookie League numbers from Patterson’s 1998 season (Boise) nor do they provide his stellar season following his ‘99 campaign playing for the Solar SOx in the AZ Fall League, but I recall he mainatined a high level of performance.
And 1999 was Patterson’s last good minor league season.
Bear in mind, I’m only answering your question “Who exactly got the undeserved promotion?†Because in spite of Patterson’s lame .261/.338/.491 at AA, Ed Lynch and Don Baylor failed to reassess their earlier observation of him from Spring Training and in calling him him up in September anyway. For no other reason than humility, Patterson would have been better served being denied the callup. Instead they promoted him and got the opposite of humility–a ceaseless sense of entitlement.
In 2001, Patterson was promoted another level, to AAA Iowa, and did worse than he did at AA, going .253/.308/.387, and yet was called up two (three?) times during that season. From there, he was in the bigs to say, save for his demotion in 2005.
Patterson was also 20 years old when he was promoted to the bigs.
Pie, on the other hand, who did not make his ML debut until he was 22, had the following numbers from 2002-2006
2002 (AZ Rookie): .321/.385/..569
2003 (Low-A): .285/.346/.388
2004 (High-A): .297/.358/..441
2005 (AA): .304/.349/.554 (Only 240 AB’s though)
2006 (AA): .283/.341/.451
I don’t want to be a fucking dick about this–like I said I was content to leave it be before you started this latest round of spleen-venting–but even Helen Keller can readily conclude that if you had to pick one player who received an undeserved promotion, it was Patterson. Patterson did nothing to merit a promotion, but got one anyway. Pie, on the other hand has performed very well at every level he’s been at. He’s got nothing to prove in Iowa, but might as well go there to at least get some consistent playing time.
As for Sling Blade Dubois, .288/.359/.521 from a slow corner outfielder who compiled those numebrs between the age of 22 and 25 is not really on the same plane as .300/.358/.468 from a non-native centerfielder who put up those numbers between the ages and 19 and 22. Ditto for that piece of scat on a shingle Rosy Brown, who was an aging Rule V schlub (if memory serves) given many chances to break into the bigs. I pity if you if you are unable or unwilling to make this distinction yourself.
Go ahead and play “Future B126er†Reed Johnson all you want. I don’t have a probem with that. I like Johnson. I’m also not predicting great success for Pie. I’m not really into predictions. If you read the first sentence in my paragraph I admit as much. I’m only advocating that they send Pie down if he’s not going to at least be part of a platoon.
The Patterson/Pie comparison doesn’t really fit.
Corey tore it up at Lansing to the tune of a .950 OPS, then put up a respectable .829 in AA the next season. At age 21, he put up a crappy .695 at Iowa over a whopping 89 games. Then he was promoted to the big leagues – I’d say that is a rushed, undeserved promotion.
Pie, on the other hand, started out slowly: .734 at Lansing and .799 at Daytona, before putting up a .903 in AA. His first year at Iowa wasn’t great (.792), but in 2007 he put up a very good .973 at age 22. A pretty good progression and by no means an undeserved promotion to the majors.
So Pie’s better numbers came later in his minor league career, whereas Corey’s are skewed by a really good first season in A ball. I’m not saying this means Pie will be better than Corey, but there’s reason to be optimistic.
And not to get to GRIT factor-y, but…Patterson was generally thought of as a cocky pud who wasn’t willing to adjust. Pie went to winter ball to try to work on some of his problems, and doesn’t seem to have those attitude issues that plagued Strut.
I think Geovany Soto might make a run at that title.
I’m not sold on Felix Pie as of yet, but I think we can all agree, over 1500 at bats, that Reed Johnson will hit like dogshit vs. righties. Also, I don’t think it’s disputed that Felix Pie is the better defensive outfielder. When you take those two things into account, I don’t see why you would start Johnson rather than trying to see what Pie can do with consistent playing time. Against lefties….you absolutely start Reed Johnson.
I like Pie. He has high socks, like Juan Pierre. His last name is actually a lot like Pierre. Just add two r’s and an e. Pierre had two hundred hits. We should get him back from the Dodgers.
and we still should have given Jason Dubois and David Kelton more at bats. I bet you’d take that corner outfield over those aging veterans we currently have in left and right.
Calm down, kettle. I wasn’t dragging anything out. I just have a completely different opinion than you do about Pie, and figured I was allowed to comment on it on my site. I’ll happily be proven wrong on this one, but I don’t think making excuses for the kid is helping any more than completely writing him off is.
I cant stand to watch Pie play. He really does look clueless at the plate. Is that because he’s only hit in the 3 spot through the minors? Will he see the same type of pitches leading off or hitting at the bottom of the order as he did hitting third his entire career? Did this organization ever really expect him to be a 3 hitter? If they did then they are dilusional and shame on them.
Pie for McLouth even steven!!
Or evan stephan?
BK, I dig where you’re coming from. The Cubs organization throughout my lifetime has touted these minor league players who come up to the bigs and go splat. I got on the Hee Seop Choi bandwagon in a big way and that’s the last time I’ll really go crazy over a prospect until they’ve spent some time producing at the major league level. The only good thing about Choi was that he provided us the means to get Derrek Lee, who is awesome and the only reason I can get my wife to watch Cub games with me. I will admit to having liked Soto for the last couple years, but always sort of figured he’d be a backup to whatever major league catcher we had, a younger version of Hank White.
I’m torn over Pie though. The kid has the defensive tools the patrol center field for years to come. He’s provided glimpses of speed and power. He’s hit at the minor league level and adjusted to each new level as he’s moved up. He seems to have a good attitude and is willing to work. He seems to really like Soriano whereas I would prefer he spent more time with our new right fielder with a Spanish to Japanese translator. Of all the goobers who have come up over the past several years, I really like this kid and want him to succeed, but not if he hinders our ability to compete. Thus the dilemma. Play him and hope his bat comes around or send him down where he can get consistent at bats and continue to develop. I do like the idea of the platoon with Johnson or putting him in as a late innings defensive replacement. Maybe if we actually win a WS this season (hah!) then we can fuck around and give the job to Pie and give him a chance to shine. Or maybe we need to trade him to a team like the Rays or Royals (neither of whom really need him either, I think) and give him a chance to play everyday for a team that’s going to play well, but probably not well enough to win anything this year. I’d hate to see him go, even if does look clueless at the plate sometimes. I guess that’s the mid 90s Cub fan in me showing through, the one that was happy with players he liked, even if they weren’t all that good. I’ve changed in that I expect guys who play for us to show results, but I don’t think it’s too much to ask that the players be somewhat likable as well. And the kiss of death is to be unlikable AND sucky. CPat and LaTroya Hawkins come to mind. At least Pie seems to be trying. Until he gives up or becomes a dick, I won’t give up on him, but if the Cubs need a better option in order to win a pennant and WS, then we need to utilize it.
I would not be opposed to playing Pie if our team was going nowhere fast or we were in first place and 10 games up….however, we have a chance to win this division again, and I don’t know about you, but I’d rather see a central division crown than see Pie hack at pitches….err….play every day. Lou is simply doing what’s best for this team at the moment by playing the hot hand. Games count the same in April as they do in September. I think BK and aaronb make great points about this organization and their sheer ineptitude at developing position players, especially ones that they constantly whore out as “the next great thing”, especially those of the “five-tool” variety. I was never sold on this guy in the first place and I have all the more reason not to be sold on him. I hope he succeeds however long he’s with the team but I honestly don’t see that happening as long as he continually hangs out with Soriano and figures out how to not swing at bad, bad, pitches. Good defense only gets you so far at the ML level these days.
Soto seems to be good, but let’s be fair here, he didn’t come with half the hype Felix did. And bringing Theriot into any argument about Felix pie is absolutely silly. Sure, Theriot is crap, but Ronny Cedeno is only marginally better at the plate (at the moment), and is probably one of the most clueless middle IFs when it comes to defense.
oops, hit “submit” too soon
anyway….Reed Johnson is obviously better than Pie at the moment, and there’s no real reason not to play him, except the fact that Felix has a lot of hype.